Episode 128

The Life of a Character with Laurel Thomas

In this episode of the Writing Momentum Podcast, award-winning author Laurel Thomas joins the hosts to discuss the internal and hidden lives of characters in fiction writing. With insights from her experience as a writer and instructor, Laurel emphasizes the importance of understanding characters' goals, motivations, and hidden fears. The conversation delves into how these elements can be effectively incorporated to make characters more relatable and engaging. Drawing examples from 'The Hunger Games' and other notable works, Laurel provides valuable tips for writers looking to craft deeper and more nuanced characters. Additionally, the hosts highlight the benefits of joining the Writing Momentum membership, which offers extensive resources, live roundtables, and a supportive community for writers of all levels.

  • 00:00 Introduction to Character's Internal Life
  • 00:36 Meet Laurel Thomas: Award-Winning Author
  • 01:09 Exploring Fiction Roundtables
  • 02:12 Diving into Characterization
  • 04:26 Understanding External, Internal, and Hidden Layers
  • 06:28 Crafting Complex Characters
  • 08:18 The Power of Hidden Motivators
  • 12:54 Writing Antiheroes and Unreliable Narrators
  • 14:22 Join the Writing Momentum Community
  • 16:24 Final Thoughts and Invitation

Links

Transcript
Gena:

What is the internal life of a character?

Chris:

Laurel Thomas is going to help us with that.

Gena:

Yay!

Gena:

We're back with Laurel!

Chris:

Yay!

Chris:

It's always good to have you on, Laurel.

Chris:

We so enjoy when you join us here on the podcast.

Chris:

We get into deep stuff and fun stuff.

Chris:

And how are you doing today?

Laurel:

Good!

Laurel:

I'm doing great.

Laurel:

We're talking about our favorite stuff.

Chris:

That's right.

Chris:

Our favorite stuff, which is writing, which is in this case, character, right?

Chris:

Characterization and all that sort of thing and craft.

Chris:

Yeah, it's all good.

Chris:

And, uh, for those of you who don't know, Laurel Thomas,

Chris:

she's an award winning author.

Chris:

She's written fantasy books.

Chris:

As you said, last time we met with you, like a light fantasy.

Chris:

It's just really, really good, uh, good books that you

Chris:

could just sink yourself into.

Chris:

And she's one of the newest trainers in the writing momentum membership.

Chris:

She teaches round tables every couple of weeks.

Chris:

And, uh, uh, we're so glad to have you on board.

Gena:

We're so excited to have you here.

Laurel:

Thank you.

Laurel:

I am thrilled to be a part of Writing Momentum.

Laurel:

So thank you.

Gena:

Yes.

Gena:

Well, last week we talked about our Writer's Fiction Roundtables.

Gena:

We did last, in our last episode, we talked about that.

Gena:

Um, I've gotten to attend a couple of them.

Gena:

So if you don't know what a Fiction Roundtable is, or a Writer's

Gena:

Roundtable is, definitely go back and listen to that podcast.

Gena:

You'll get to hear more about what those are, but you'll also get to hear from

Gena:

Laurel of who she is and how she came to be teaching these fiction roundtables

Gena:

after 25 years as a nonfiction writer.

Gena:

So for those of you who are saying, well, I'm a nonfiction writer.

Gena:

There is still the chance for you to, as our friend Rene says, come over

Gena:

to the dark side and do some fiction.

Gena:

And so, um, but because I got to visit and be with her, uh, last writer's

Gena:

round table, I, she talked about characterization and I thought that

Gena:

would just be such a great thing to share with those of you on the

Gena:

podcast who are listening or watching.

Gena:

So, can you talk to us, Laurel, about this idea of the internal life,

Gena:

the hidden life, of a character?

Laurel:

Yes, I mean, on the surface, it seems a little nebulous, right?

Laurel:

But actually, it's not, because if we know ourselves, and certainly people

Laurel:

that we love, we know that every person on earth has an external layer,

Laurel:

an inner layer and a hidden layer.

Laurel:

So it's not unusual.

Laurel:

It's just a matter of accessing, I think, what we already know

Laurel:

about people and about ourselves.

Laurel:

So the interesting thing about fiction is that I've learned that instead of

Laurel:

structuring only by plot, basically choosing a main character, and then having

Laurel:

interesting things happen, you know, to that character, or through that character,

Laurel:

however you want to look at that, you know, it's an interesting craft to

Laurel:

structure a novel totally around the main character by accessing what, what is that,

Laurel:

what does that main character believe?

Laurel:

What does she cherish?

Laurel:

And yesterday during our roundtable, we talked about Hunger Games and we talked

Laurel:

about Katniss Everdeen who, you know, remember she's a fictional character.

Laurel:

She, is a loner.

Laurel:

She's basically doesn't really care about anybody except for Prim and

Laurel:

Prim is her little sister and she has vowed to protect that little sister.

Laurel:

And so when the inciting incident arises, Suzanne Collins is so artful because that

Laurel:

inciting incident takes Prim or threatens to take Prim from Katniss's life.

Laurel:

So, What we talked about was that, so that makes it so much more powerful

Laurel:

than a random mine explosion, right?

Laurel:

Because we know a little bit, you know, and I like to look at

Laurel:

the fact that setting is also external, inner, and hidden, right?

Laurel:

So at the very beginning, at the opening, we see a main character's world.

Laurel:

And it's the external view, basically, of that world.

Laurel:

But the view of that world will go deeper and deeper and deeper with your character.

Laurel:

And that kind of the way, the way those two are linked, I think it's just kind

Laurel:

of a cool way to structure a story.

Laurel:

And I can't say that I'm a total expert on it, but I am working on it

Laurel:

on my new novel with the hopes that it will engage readers emotionally.

Laurel:

And I think, you know, we as, as novelists, as writers, as creatives.

Laurel:

You know, we deal in emotions and we teach and we share and we communicate

Laurel:

in a way that, you know, an effective story, you remember that story.

Laurel:

It carries something that, that stays with you.

Laurel:

So anyway, does that answer the question a little?

Chris:

It's really good.

Chris:

I can, you know, when I think of the Hunger Games and you bring up that scene

Chris:

at the beginning where Prim is chosen, and Katniss has to essentially take her place.

Chris:

You're right that Suzanne Collins could have just written it where Katniss

Chris:

was the name who was drawn, right?

Chris:

Her name was drawn, she's thrown into the Hunger Games.

Chris:

But she chose instead to say, no, I'm going to have it be, I'm going to have

Chris:

her have a stake in this because she's trying to protect her sister, right?

Chris:

It's not just her name was chosen.

Chris:

It's that someone else's name was chosen.

Chris:

And now she, and it also shows you a bit of her character coming out, right?

Chris:

You see a little bit into who Katniss is because of her response to,

Chris:

um, what happened in that moment.

Chris:

So Help us define what these three points are.

Chris:

You talked about external, internal, and then hidden.

Chris:

So, I can see, okay, external and internal, but, but like, how does

Chris:

internal differ from your hidden, right?

Chris:

Because your internal is kind of hidden.

Chris:

So, how would you define each of those?

Laurel:

That's a really good point.

Laurel:

Yes, the the way I see the internal is that it's our goals, it's our

Laurel:

motivations, it's our perceptions, but the hidden layer, it are the

Laurel:

parts of us that we are not aware of.

Laurel:

And often, it's often, it's a lie that we believe, maybe would never say that

Laurel:

we believe it, because it's so hidden.

Laurel:

And you know, if you look at like the greatest showman, Okay, what was it?

Laurel:

Well, you know, he had been so shamed as a child and, and

Laurel:

raised in such terrible poverty.

Laurel:

And then I think about the man who invented Christmas, about Charles Dickens.

Laurel:

And, you know, he was sold, um, to a debtor's prison.

Laurel:

And, and how that formed such a drive in the midst of those main characters.

Laurel:

But, you know, what they want is success and significance.

Laurel:

But what they need is the validation that they are worthy as people, they

Laurel:

are worthy, they're, they're valuable as people, regardless of what they do

Laurel:

and regardless of what they accomplish.

Laurel:

So, the, I would say like the hidden arena of the greatest showman and certainly

Laurel:

the man who invented Christmas is shame.

Laurel:

And what a deep motivator shame is.

Laurel:

And yet, often, as, you know, we just.

Laurel:

We're not even aware what we do tries to cover shame.

Laurel:

You know, shame is a very strong motivator.

Laurel:

It's based in a lie, but it's a powerful motivator.

Laurel:

And that's an example of a hidden layer.

Chris:

That's really good.

Chris:

See, this is the kind of thing that we get in your workshops.

Chris:

If we sit down, we get to talk about this, you get to hear

Chris:

other people talk about it too.

Chris:

And you kind of get into the meat of this together.

Chris:

So it's almost like, as you talk about characterization, it's almost

Chris:

like you are putting on the therapist role and saying, I'm going to go into

Chris:

my character's mind and not just see what motivates them in their head

Chris:

space, but also what's motivating them deeper inside in their heart,

Chris:

even if it's not a good thing, right?

Chris:

There's, there's something there that's still motivating them to be who they

Chris:

are, to make the decisions they make that If you don't include that, it could

Chris:

almost make the character not make sense, or certainly not be as real, right?

Gena:

And I think, like what you're saying, you're talking

Gena:

about a little bit of brokenness that is in every person, right?

Gena:

There's a little bit of brokenness, even something that maybe on an external

Gena:

layer would come out as pride, or arrogance, maybe that hidden layer is

Gena:

fear, or, a doubt that they do matter, you know, that search for significance

Gena:

that maybe comes out as bravado.

Gena:

So that, and the hidden layer is they know they want what they want, they've

Gena:

learned how to get it, you know, they know how to manipulate people or whatever.

Gena:

But then that hidden layer is that fear that they don't matter if

Gena:

they don't succeed or are driven.

Gena:

And I'm thinking as you're talking, cause I'm a huge Hunger Games fan.

Gena:

Movies and books, I should say books and movies.

Gena:

But you think about, I'm thinking about the way that Suzanne Collins crafted, um,

Gena:

Katniss in that we see that her father died, that her mother had a breakdown,

Gena:

that she had to provide, that she's living under this harsh society, these

Gena:

rules where she can't even provide.

Gena:

And so she has to break the law to do it.

Gena:

And so you see, then there's, there is probably in that character, I would

Gena:

say, there's this, this fear that if I'm not here, Prim won't be taken

Gena:

care of or everything will fall apart.

Gena:

And, you know, in her mind, the internal layer is, well, I've got to get food

Gena:

for the family, I've got to do this, but then you see that internal layer

Gena:

which comes out when she's saying goodbye to her mother and she says, you

Gena:

can't fall apart, you can't fall apart.

Gena:

And then she says, don't cry, don't cry, like, like she's doing, she's

Gena:

had to be the strength for her family.

Gena:

Can you tell I love the book?

Gena:

I love the book.

Gena:

Love the book.

Gena:

Love the movie.

Laurel:

Gena and I can go on and on over this and I think the beautiful thing

Laurel:

about, like, the external inner and hidden layer is that you can craft an

Laurel:

amazing character arc out of that, you know, and it fits so well with a lots

Laurel:

of different structure because it fits well with the dark moment, you know,

Laurel:

the dark night of the soul, you know, the mirror moment or the aha moment.

Laurel:

Um, and then of course, it equips them to face the climax

Laurel:

or the, the greatest challenge.

Laurel:

So it, you know, it, it's really helpful when you're crafting, um, that full

Laurel:

character art to know, okay, well, this is how they present themselves.

Laurel:

Like, you know, the opening image, but then what is the final image and

Laurel:

how have they come through into a place of transformation in the end?

Laurel:

That's evident that can be seen.

Chris:

You know, there's been a, uh, recent trend that's been just

Chris:

become more popular of writing books with an antihero, right?

Chris:

Someone who's not as likable or who's, has a dark side or that sort of thing.

Chris:

And this is, it's interesting because this is the kind of thing, if you want

Chris:

to write a book like that, you've got to get into these internal and these

Chris:

hidden parts of your character in order to take this unlikable hero, right?

Chris:

And make them likable to the, to the reader, because then you have, in

Chris:

order to give the reader something to identify with that character, you've

Chris:

got to go into the internal and the hidden, because on the surface, they

Chris:

seem like, Oh, this is a villain, right?

Chris:

This is someone who I don't like.

Chris:

But if you can tap deeper into that, put that therapist hat on, I think you can

Chris:

really make them a rich character that people want to read and identify with.

Laurel:

Yes.

Laurel:

Yes.

Gena:

I think that's also the case for books that I know you love,

Gena:

which are unreliable narrators.

Chris:

Yes.

Chris:

Unreliable narrators are like that also.

Gena:

Yes.

Gena:

Where you're not really sure.

Gena:

Well, what makes you not sure about that character and why is that

Gena:

character so kind of, can they be trusted or can't they be trusted?

Gena:

A lot of times it is those hidden things that have gone on.

Gena:

It's the history and the, the book, the paradigms that they're, that they

Gena:

believe, the things that they believe.

Gena:

So, um, That's so good.

Gena:

That's so good.

Gena:

Well, this is just scratching the surface on characterization, and

Gena:

you can tell that this is why we're so thrilled to have Laurel as part

Gena:

of the Writing Momentum membership.

Gena:

Our membership is, it is, uh, only 25 a month, and it includes hours, hundreds

Gena:

of hours at this point of training.

Gena:

Um, it includes weekly co writing sessions that come with a little bit of a

Gena:

nugget of training as well that is live.

Gena:

And then Laurel is doing these live roundtables twice a month.

Gena:

And so this is your opportunity to not only learn, but from the

Gena:

recorded material, learn from the live material, but also be part

Gena:

of a community that is on a path.

Gena:

And it is not a one size fits all.

Gena:

We have people who are in this community who are published authors.

Gena:

We have ones that are brand new.

Gena:

We have ones that are traditionally published, some

Gena:

that are, uh, self published.

Gena:

That doesn't matter.

Gena:

Uh, it really is about us coming together, uh, and encouraging

Gena:

one another on the journey.

Gena:

And I will also say that the membership includes training on fiction, nonfiction,

Gena:

and children's, uh, as well as marketing and author branding and publishing.

Gena:

So we try to cover everything that would help writers succeed.

Gena:

So, uh, if you would like to join us at the Writing Momentum membership, there's

Gena:

a code here that you will find below that go ahead and click on the code.

Gena:

Check it out.

Gena:

We'd love to have you join us.

Gena:

Uh, and you know, people who join the membership, they

Gena:

are more than names to us.

Gena:

They're more than just faces.

Gena:

They are people that we actually have the privilege of getting to know and be,

Gena:

be with them on their writing journey.

Chris:

So we'll thank you today for being with us Laurel.

Chris:

This is always so good.

Chris:

If you didn't hear her last podcast, go back and listen to that last one.

Chris:

We're going to give you the final word.

Chris:

You got any final word?

Laurel:

Well, I think it's interesting that I, through all the Write Your

Laurel:

Heart Out and Writer's Roundtable, I've always sent, um, my writers to Chris

Laurel:

and Gena to Writing Momentum, uh, for their vast and excellent resources.

Laurel:

So I think it's fitting that I get to come on board and be a part of this.

Laurel:

So thank you so much.

Chris:

You're welcome.

Chris:

And we're so glad you are.

Chris:

Uh, we hope that you were able to, all of you who are listening are able to join

Chris:

us, that you're able to join, Laurel, that you're able to get deeper into all this.

Chris:

Remember, as you're writing, you don't want to do this alone, right?

Chris:

Don't try to do this whole writing thing all on your own

Chris:

and try to figure everything out.

Chris:

Save yourself all the years of questions that you might have, and just come

Chris:

and learn with us and spend time with us, and we'll put you a bit on that

Chris:

fast track to success because together

Gena:

we have writing momentum.

Chris:

Bye-Bye.

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About your host

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Christopher Maselli

Christopher P.N. Maselli is a Certified Digital Marketing Professional, an award-winning children’s author of more than 50 books, a direct mail writer, and a ghostwriter for many prominent, international speakers.

“I love sharing what I’ve learned over the past 25 years,” says Chris. “We’re all in this together and hopefully what I’ve learned can benefit beginners and veterans alike.”

Chris regularly speaks at writer’s conferences nationwide and on the training portion of WritingMomentum.com, he helps put other writers on the fast track to success. He holds a Masters of Fine Arts in Writing.